249: How To Manage Cashflow Issues With Your Ecommerce Business With Victoria Sullivan Of Payability

Steve: You’re listening to the My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast, the place where I bring on successful bootstrapped business owners and dig deep into what strategies they use to grow their businesses. Today I have Victoria Sullivan on the show and Victoria works at Payability and is an expert when it comes to keeping e-commerce companies fed with a constant stream of product. And today, we are going to discuss how to deal with cash flow issues when it comes to selling physical products online.

But before we begin, I want to give a quick shout out to Privy who is a sponsor of the show. Privy is the tool that I use to build my email list for both my blog and my online store. And right now I’m using Privy to display a cool wheel of fortune pop up. Basically a user gives their email for a chance to win valuable prices in our store. And customers love the gamification aspect of this. And when I implemented this form email signups increased by 131%.

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I also want to give a quick shout out to Klaviyo who is a sponsor of the show. Klaviyo is the tool that I use to build real quality customer relationships with my e-commerce store. And because all my transactions and email correspondence is tracked in Klaviyo, I can easily build meaningful customer relationships by listening, understanding and taking cues from my customers and delivering personalized marketing messages. So for example, with one click of a button, I can easily send a specific and targeted email to all customers with a lifetime value of over 100 bucks who purchased red handkerchiefs in the past year. And it is for this reason why over 10,000 brands have switched over to Klaviyo.

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Intro: Welcome to the My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast. We will teach you how to create a business that suits your lifestyle so you can spend more time with your family and focus on doing the things that you love. Here is your host Steve Chou.

Steve: Welcome to the My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast. Today, I’m really happy to have Victoria Sullivan on the show. Now, Victoria is a marketing manager over at Payability and she is an expert when it comes to raising funds for your ecommerce business. And as you probably know, every physical products business requires capital in order to maintain your sales, and cash flow can be a huge problem because you need to invest a large amount of cash up front to make money. So, Victoria and I are going to discuss different methods of raising money today, along with the pros and cons of each. And with that, welcome to the show Victoria. How are you doing today?

Victoria: Hey Steve, thanks for having me. This is great.

Steve: Hey, Victoria. You know, I’m sorry; I’m used to call you Vicki, Victoria sounds so formal. Is that what you normally go by, or?

Victoria: I normally go by Vicki but it’s fun to get called Victoria.

Steve: So Victoria, please give us your background story and how you got into this business of financing.

Victoria: I don’t come from a financing background common with sellers. I think a lot of them don’t come from business backgrounds, and yet run these awesome ecommerce businesses on Amazon. I came from an advertising background, and I was [inaudible 00:04:02] ad agencies here in New York and I really was looking for a change. I wanted to go in house. And I had some experience with technology, working on ad campaigns for Samsung and Skype. We’re actually on Skype right now. So, I decided to apply for Payability. I wasn’t sure how it would go since I don’t have any finance experience, but ended up being a great match. And I’ve been here for over a year now and I’m really loving it.

Steve: Cool. So, can we kind of talk briefly about why financing is so important for e-commerce businesses. And maybe you can talk about some of the customers that you’ve dealt with, why is it more important for e-commerce in particular, as opposed to some of the other business models out there?

Victoria: Financing is super important in e-commerce, especially on platforms like Amazon and Walmart, as you probably are aware; these platforms have really created unlimited demand among consumers. And you really need to keep up with that demand in order to scale your business and make every sale you can possibly be making.

Steve: Yeah, absolutely. And I know like for us, we run an e-commerce business, every time we place an order of a container, that’s a huge initial cash outlay and sometimes we haven’t even sold out of all of our existing inventory. And so oftentimes, we’re just piping and all that money back into the inventory and sometimes if our businesses growing, we need even more money. And so, it’s definitely a huge factor, especially in e-commerce when you have to put all this money up front for your inventory.

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely.

Steve: So, what I’m hoping to do today is talk about some of the different financing options out there. And I figured let’s start with Payability first before going down some of the other routes. What does Payability do?

Victoria: Sure, so we’re financing company, and exclusively for Amazon and e-commerce sellers. We also have financing solutions on Walmart, Shopify, Etsy, Tophatter and a bunch of other different marketplaces and we plan on adding even more marketplaces this year. Financing products are created exclusively for the needs of e-commerce sellers. And we have two different products; our first product is our daily payments product, which is called Instant Access. So, instead of getting paid every 14 plus days, like you do on Amazon, you’re going to get paid your daily cash flow and get paid every day. So you always have money on hand to place an order, to pay your employees, or order shipping materials or whatnot. So, that’s just like continuous cash flow to grow your business.

Steve: So you’re getting paid every day, but what is the cost of getting paid so often?

Victoria: Sure, so for that we charge a 2% fee on the gross, the total sales.

Steve: Okay, so I’m sorry, you get paid every single day 2%. And so if you amortize that out to a year, do you know what the yearly interest rate comes out to be?

Victoria: Since it is a factoring product, there are no interest rates; it’s a flat fee, yeah.

Steve: Okay. And so can we contrast this then to like getting a traditional bank loan?

Victoria: I would say it’s completely different as far as any traditional loan, and that’s more like financing your business with someone else’s money. But this is financing your business with your own money. So you’re assuming a lot less risk. And again, it’s your own money; it scales up and down with you. And so, it’s very different from a traditional loan, but it can be used alongside a traditional loan.

Steve: Interesting, so let’s talk about that a little bit. So, is there like a monthly fee to use the service then? Because let’s say, I don’t make any money that month, does that mean I don’t owe anything?

Victoria: The fee is based on how much money you’ve made. So, it’s just a flat 2% fee on your gross sales and on your total sales. So yeah, it is contingent on how much you’ve made.

Steve: So, do I need to do anything to qualify for this? So, let’s say I come in, and I’m only making like $1,000 a month. And then there’s some months where I don’t make that much at all, is it just completely variable?

Victoria: So you do need to make a certain amount of sales in order to qualify. We require around 90 days of a consistent selling history and an average of around $2,000 a month in sales. You need around $100 to cash out every day so that’s why we structure it that way. But again, so it’s a pretty small minimum, you definitely don’t have to be a big seller to use it and start scaling your business. Another thing I should point out about all our products, and kind of what makes us unique for e-commerce sellers is that we don’t check your credit.

We don’t ask for tax documents. We don’t ask for any bank statements like our more traditional financing company would, it is all based on your Amazon account health and sales performance. So again, no credit polls, and you’re just going to get rewarded with financing for being a good seller, because Amazon does provide us with data to see how you’re performing and how good a seller you are and that’s kind of how we evaluate you.

Steve: Interesting. So what are the minimums actually in order to qualify?

Victoria: So for daily payouts, it’s an average of $2,000 a month in total sales.

Steve: Okay, it’s not that much at all, okay.

Victoria: And around 90 days of sales history.

Steve: Okay. And if there’s certain months of very low sales, then it doesn’t matter, right, once you qualify, you’re pretty much…

Victoria: We evaluate each customer individually. But yeah, once you’re on, if you have very low sales, then what usually happens is we do sunset those accounts, but usually that doesn’t happen.

Steve: Okay. So, all right so if we’re contracting like a traditional bank loan, where you’re getting this loan upfront that you need to pay back, there’s the potential that you can’t pay back the bank loan and then they can start repossessing stuff. Whereas with Payability, you’re just taking a percentage out of someone’s earnings on Amazon and so there’s no real risk of a default per se, because it’s not really a loan. Is that accurate?

Victoria: Yeah, it’s totally accurate. This is a factor; they get automated factoring service for Amazon and e-commerce sellers so there really isn’t a lot of risk on your part. It’s just getting your own money faster, and putting it to work faster.

Steve: Okay. And then 2%, that sounds like kind of like on the order of like a credit card charge, right? Like, if I was taking credit cards through Stripe, I get charged 2.9%, you can kind of think of it analogous to that in terms of fees?

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. It’s definitely equivalent to like your payment processor that you would pay if you had a physical store that was accepting visa cards; you can definitely compare it to that.

Steve: So, why would someone use this as opposed to just like credit card financing, which is readily available, like you don’t have to go through any application process, you can just max out your credit cards?

Victoria: Maxing your credit cards also does create a lot of risk. And like I mentioned before, demand on Amazon, a lot of people sell, even if they do have really high credit limits, if they have a really hot product, a lot of people sell a lot more than their credit limit will allow. So they really need to catch out every day or more often in order to pay those credit cards down and keep ordering the inventory that they need to keep scaling their business. It’s all about just getting every sale you can possibly get.

Steve: So in terms of payment, how does it work and how do you enforce that the seller is going to pay you?

Victoria: So, how it works is when you sign up for Payability for a daily payments product, you switch out the bank account on your Amazon account to our account. So, you would get paid by Payability every day. And then we would get paid by Amazon.

Steve: I see. Okay and so that’s why you have such a high approval rate, right? You’re just doing it based on Amazon sales, you get the money first and then you pay out to the seller.

Victoria: So yeah, so we advance the seller on the money that we see in the Amazon account each day, and then we get paid back by Amazon. So you don’t have to go in and write us a check or anything like you would with a more traditional loan, it’s just directly in the flow of funds.

Steve: Can we talk about what happens for refunds, suspensions, and some of those special cases.

Victoria: So as far as refunds, we only advance you 80% of your payout every day and that’s to cover returns and charge backs. So, that usually covers that and then we release that 20% to you when we recruit the funds from Amazon usually at the end of the 14 day period. As far as suspension, when you are suspended from Amazon, you are also suspended from Payability; we don’t continue to send you any more funds until you’ve worked it out with Amazon. Well, it’s like we will have advanced to you some of your Amazon payment go to you, hey, you got suspended from Amazon, pay us back that money right now. We don’t do that, but we do put a hold on those funds with Amazon. So in case your account doesn’t get reinstated or we can’t get ahold of you, we are able to recoup the money that we advanced you.

Steve: Okay. And how invasive are you guys into the Amazon account? So for example, let’s say I was a seller, and I was doing some sketchy activity like buying reviews or whatnot, and I was just counting on the immediate payout from you guys to get the money before I was suspended, for example, in the worst case, do you guys monitor the health of the Amazon accounts?

Victoria: So, we do have over two years of machine learning that kind of picked up on these behaviors of people who have defrauded us in the past if that makes sense.

Steve: Yeah.

Victoria: So, our system runs — the computer runs 24 hours a day and a lot of times, it’ll spot these behaviors and flag that account. And sometimes something is indeed going on and sometimes nothing is going on, the seller has perfectly reasonable explanation as to what happened. But we usually stop advancing funds until we get ahold of them to talk about what’s going on.

Steve: Okay, can we talk a little bit about just like Payability versus like Amazon loans. I get these emails all the time where Amazon will just loan me a set amount of money based on the amount of sales that I’m generating. And I guess if Amazon is just willing to give me a loan without anything, they’re obviously pretty confident that I can pay it back. So, what are the pros and cons and why would I go with one or the other?

Victoria: You can definitely go with both. We work really well in conjunction with Amazon loans, about 40% of our customers have Amazon loans and we work really well to accommodate that. That’s also a great tool you can use to grow your business. So definitely it doesn’t have to be one or the other, especially with our daily payments product, they can really complement each other.

Steve: I see. So people are getting loans up front to fund their inventory and getting their money back immediately they can funnel back into the inventory?

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely or other aspects like paying your VAs.

Steve: Let me ask you this, I’m just thinking kind of like on my feet right now. Typically you get paid out from Amazon fairly often. So what can you do with an extra week or two weeks’ worth of money? Like what are some scenarios where you’ll need the money like that quickly and that immediately?

Victoria: So, with a lot of the bigger sellers, I think they find it challenging where they have hundreds if not thousands of skews and they have many different suppliers, all of which that want their money at different times on different terms. They don’t have to worry about constantly having to put this on a credit card and borrow here to cover all of those orders at different times of the month, they’re just able to cash out every day, cover the order, pay cash and not think about it.

Steve: I see, can you give me some examples of maybe some of your customers where this is like an absolute necessary thing?

Victoria: Sure. Yeah, we’re actually shooting a video with a customer in Atlanta and they came out with a private — they have a private label allergy test product for pets and people, a really cool product. It’s really taken off on Amazon and they have no other financing, no other loans, no investors, and they finance their entire operation really just off daily payments. They had a lot of surprises before where they had the inventory, but sales are spiking in December or during the holiday season and they need to order a bunch of shipping materials at the drop of a hat. They can just cash out that day, cover that order and they’re done. They’re not thinking about it, they’re not putting a little bit on this credit card, maybe borrowing a little bit from parents, may be borrowing a little bit from here in order to scale the business and cover that order, they’re just cashing out and not even thinking about it.

Steve: I see. So for these customers, like even within like a couple week window, they need the cash quickly?

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely just with the demand of Amazon, and then they want to scale their business quickly. So, that’s why they’re cashing out and really benefiting from being able to pay different people at different times, being able to order supplies at the drop of a hat, make payroll, hire extra people. It really gives you more flexibility around your business because you’re not dependent on that payment coming in order to cover these expenses; you’re just going to be able to cover them.

Steve: So, I’m just curious, and I’m not sure you will have the answer to this question. But if you were to do like a case study of someone who has the funding and who does not, I’m just wondering if you have any statistics in terms of growth where you’re funneling everything quickly into your business versus not.

Victoria: So Marketplace Poll actually did a case study over a year ago, I’m going to bring it up here on my computer and I’ll read you some of those statistics. But it’s like you said, people who got paid sooner did scale there businesses a lot faster, and in ways you wouldn’t think. It’s not just growing their catalog of products; their positive reviews also went up as did their overall rank within Amazon. Because as you probably already know from selling on Amazon, stock out can be really detrimental to an Amazon business in that and you’re not only just losing sales today, you’re also losing sales tomorrow because you are going to lose a lot of your rank within Amazon and you’re going to have to kind of get back to where you started. So, because of that a lot of people have been able to avoid stock outs and they’ve increased their marketplace pulse rank because they haven’t had to play that game of catch up.

Steve: Right. I should have warned you ahead of time that I was going to ask this. What else does that study say? I’m just very curious.

Victoria: Sure. Yeah, I can certainly send you the link. It’s over a six month period of setting Payability to customers versus non Payability customers. And Payability customers increase their rank by an average of 26.4% after six months, while non Payability customers decrease their rank by an average of 22.1% after six months.

Steve: So, I’m just doing some mental calculations in my head right now. If I were to pay 2% of everything, if you kind of treat it like a loan and amortize it over like an entire year, it seems like the rate overall is significantly higher than getting a loan right? And so, I was just kind of curious of what are kind of like the ideal businesses for this? When would you choose to get a loan or even do crowdfunding and that sort of thing versus Payability, and when do they work well together?

Victoria: Sure. So yeah, I mean like you said, Payability definitely is not the cheapest way to fund your business but it is the fastest and most flexible way and it is a product designed for e-commerce sellers. So yeah, a loan or a credit card is definitely probably going to be cheaper for you, but this gives you more speed and flexibility. For example, because we don’t pull credit or anything, we’re able to approve people I know in less than 24 hours. We have another product called Instant Advance which is kind of like a merchant cash advance but for Amazon and e-commerce sellers, and here’s a good case city on that and how it gives you more speed and flexibility.

We had a seller that was on daily payments, it’s a Walmart seller actually and his supplier was having a huge sale. So he gave us a call Friday morning saying, I need 15 grand to buy from my supplier sails which he warehouses and he wants to sell me this inventory super cheap. So, Friday morning, we were able to approve him for a $15,000 instant advance, and he got his money that afternoon. He went to his supplier Saturday and bought the inventory. And with a bank, that’s going to take you at least two weeks and require a ton of paperwork, and by then somebody else has bought the inventory. So, that’s kind of what the benefits are. If you really need that speed and that scalability as a lot of sellers do, that’s where Payability comes in.

Steve: Actually no, that makes a whole lot of sense because getting a bank loan, sometimes you don’t even qualify right, sometimes you need a huge track record of sales in order to get a bank loan especially if you’re like a six figure seller and you don’t even have like a two or three year track record, it can be difficult to get a blown actually in my experience at least.

Victoria: Yeah, we hear that all the time and banks don’t really understand FBA or anything like that; they’re going to want to hold your inventory as collateral. And when you tell them my inventory is across 18 different FBA warehouses, they’re going to say, I don’t understand that, I can’t give you a loan based on that. But where capability is different is we’re actually looking directly at your Amazon account, seeing that you have the sales, seeing that you have even more potential and getting your money in 24 hours, no credit checks.

Steve: Okay. So, it’s okay, I think I’m getting a better picture of this now. So, it seems like if you have the time and you’re not in any urgency, perhaps a bank loan is a cheaper choice, but as you’re just kind of running your business, you’re going to run to these cash flow issues and Payability just helps smooth everything out for you.

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, if you can get approved and you have the time, a bank loan is probably the way to go. But a lot of our customers again do use both; they use both the daily payments and get bank loans too for bigger inventory.

Steve: Can I ask if there’s any sort of ideal business for this certain funding model? And immediately comes to mind actually is like a parallel, right? I need to outlay a large amount of cash for all these different sizes and all these different skews, especially over the holidays. That would be like the first industry that comes to mind. Are there any patterns in the types of customers that you have for this that is ideal for this service?

Victoria: Yeah, I haven’t really seen like a certain type of business or a type of category that’s really big into this business, we just see a business that seeing growth on Amazon and wants to take it to the next level, but it needs additional financing to do so. So, really just fast growing e-commerce businesses, but I haven’t seen a certain category or anything as far as our customer base.

Steve: And are most of your customers, are they larger businesses or their smaller guys too that have been taking advantage of this?

Victoria: We see everything from people who are doing around $2,000 a month to people who are doing well over a million a month benefiting from our service depending on their business model.

Steve: I’m just curious, for someone who’s just doing $2,000 a month, why would they need the money so quickly? Have you interviewed any of these people? I’m just kind of curious.

Victoria: Sure. I think a lot of them are doing retail arbitrage to just kind of get started. And even if you’re getting only $100 a day, if you go to Walmart, you can definitely buy a lot of inventory there.

Steve: Okay. That makes a whole lot of sense actually, because I was thinking of private label and oftentimes you have to make your order two to three months in advance, so even if you were to get the money sooner rather than later, it might only save you a couple of weeks. But retail arbitrage, you need the money every day, pretty much. So that makes a whole lot of sense.

Victoria: Yeah, I love them. I started retail arbitrage just to get going on Amazon and then I can go into wholesale and private label.

Steve: So, if I’m a seller and I’m looking for funding, and we talked about a bunch of different ways to get money. There’s also micro loans which we kind of haven’t talked about yet. Those are where it’s kind of a way to raise money where a whole bunch of people contribute, there’s like Lending Club and those sorts of services, can you kind of talk about why you’d go with one or the other in terms of that as well?

Victoria: I would say that probably the same thing with speed and scalability. I’m sure [inaudible 00:27:11] a while for all of these different loans to come together. But if you come to Payability, and you decide that’s what you want to do, we just take a look at your Amazon account and within 24 hours we can get you paid. So, I think again, if you have more time, that might be a good option for you.

Steve: Does this only work for Amazon? Like if I’m running my own e-commerce store, can I also use it?

Victoria: We also have, we have clients across at Walmart, Shopify, Etsy, Tophatter, Newegg. And we keep adding — Jet, we keep adding new marketplaces. So absolutely not just for Amazon, it’s for general e-commerce sellers.

Steve: How does Shopify work, is it the same thing like the money gets deposited into your account, and then it gets paid out?

Victoria: So, we don’t have daily payments on Shopify, we just do instant advance on there since they do pay every day or every other day. And it yeah, it works very similarly. We’re always directly — we like to stay directly in the flow of funds just to make it easier for us and the customer that way, you’re not writing us a check like you would on a loan. It’s just you’re making the sales, you’re scaling your business and we’re getting paid.

Steve: Okay. It seems to me after our conversation today, I think the biggest factor with your service at least is peace of mind, right? You don’t have this debt hanging over your head; it’s just kind of taken out of your existing funds, and there’s no worry factor, I guess.

Victoria: Yeah, that’s why a lot of people use us, they don’t want to worry about the, again, the debt hanging over their head, or if all of a sudden their sales scale up, they have the inventory, but they need to order a lot of shipping materials in a short amount of time, they don’t have to think about it. So, it’s two minutes of your day to manage cash flow, just going into the Payability app, and — well we don’t have an app yet, but website and cashing out. So, it cuts a lot of time for customers. They said they used to spend hours a week figuring out how they were going to pay for different expenses of a growing business, and now they don’t even think about how they cashed out that day and they paid for what they needed to pay for, and they just continue their growth.

Steve: Okay. So if I were to just kind of sum up our conversation today, it sounds like if you have a lot of time, then it’s probably in your best interest to try to get a loan. But oftentimes, in the spirit of running a business, it’s never going to be that smooth, and you can never predict things in advance. And so, it’s fine to combine both of these services. But as you run your business, if you need money, and it’s busty at times, Payability helps smooth everything out.

Victoria: Yeah, absolutely, I mean opportunity cost is huge in e-commerce and you don’t want to be missing out on sales.

Steve: And the two services work well together. Is there any way for me to like pause it from time to time when I don’t think I need the money that quickly?

Victoria: So for [inaudible 00:30:25], you can’t turn it off day to day, week to week; we just have a 30 day cancellation policy. So you absolutely can — so it is flexible, not as flexible as I don’t need it this week, you’ll turn it off, but it is a 30 day cancellation policy. So, a lot of people do use it seasonally. They only need it in Q4, they cancel December 1st, and by January 1st they’re no longer there.

Steve: That was my next question because that makes a whole lot of sense. Like, I definitely might want to turn this on during the holiday season, where things are just absolutely crazy. But then when it’s slower, maybe like during the summer months, I might want to turn this off.

Victoria: Yeah, there’s no cancellation fees or penalties for canceling, just the 30 days.

Steve: Okay. And in terms of the 2%, is there any wiggle room there?

Victoria: Sure. Yeah, we do have, again, we evaluate each account individually, amateur sellers doing 50 K or more a month, if they qualify, we often are able to bring that down a little bit, so yeah.

Steve: Okay, cool. Well Victoria, thanks a lot for kind of clearing this up. You know, we’ve talked in the past and I was never 100% clear on like some of the use cases for the service. I understand that you have a special offer for the listeners?

Victoria: Sure. If you go to go, that’s go.payability.com/Steve, you can sign up for Payability and get a $200 sign up bonus.

Steve: Interesting. So that’s like free money.

Victoria: Yeah.

Steve: Okay. Yeah, so hopefully the listeners out there, if you feel like you’re going to come to a cash flow crunch, at least talking with you today Vicki has mitigated some of my main concerns. It seems like the ability to turn this on and off during peak periods from a month to month basis is very attractive. And just for peace of mind, for your ecommerce business, it can make a lot of sense, especially if your business is busty.

Victoria: Yeah.

Steve: So, Vicki, thanks a lot for coming on the show. I really appreciate your inputs.

Victoria: Cool. Thanks for having me.

Steve: All right. Take care.

Hope you enjoyed that episode. Now I thought it was really interesting to break down the different options when it comes to raising money for an e-commerce business. And there’s some amount of peace of mind when you use a service like Payability because you can avoid going into debt. For more information about this episode, go to mywifequitherjob.com/episode249.

And once again, I want to thank Klaviyo for sponsoring this episode. Klaviyo is my email marketing platform of choice for developing real customer relationships. And right now they just released a cool docuseries called Beyond Black Friday where you can learn successful e-commerce marketing strategies from real companies using their platform. Now, this docuseries is free and you could check it out at Klaviyo.com/beyondbf, once again that’s K-L-A-V-I-Y-O.com/beyondbf.

I also want to thank Privy for sponsoring this episode. Privy is the email capture provider that I personally use to turn visitors into email subscribers. They offer email capture, exit intent, and site targeting tools to make it super simple as well. And I like Privy because it’s so powerful and you can basically trigger custom pop-ups for any primer that is closely tied to your e-commerce store. If you want to give it a try, it is free. So, head on over to Privy.com/Steve, once again, that’s P-R-I-V-Y.com/Steve.

Now, I talk about how I use these tools on my blog, and if you’re interested in starting your own e-commerce store, head on over to mywifequitherjob.com and sign up for my free six-day mini course. Just type in your email and I’ll send you the course right away. Thanks for listening.

Outro: Thanks for listening to the My Wife Quit Her Job Podcast where we’re giving the courage people need to start their own online business. For more information, visit Steve’s blog at www.Mywifequitherjob.com.